The miNEStry: An NES Podcast
The miNEStry founders, Archbishop Dracul and Father Avram, seek to inspire their 8-bit parishioners through methodical and ceremonial scrutiny of the library of games on the Nintendo Entertainment System.
The miNEStry: An NES Podcast
"Wizards & Warriors"
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Tonight we are reflecting on Wizards & Warriors, a 1987 action platformer developed by Rare and published by Acclaim. Wizards & Warriors was Rare’s second NES release after the black box game Slalom. Rare went on to develop more games in the series such as Ironsword and Kuros: Visions of Power.
The miNEStry founders, Archbishop Dracul and Father Avram, seek to inspire their 8-bit parishioners through methodical and ceremonial scrutiny of the library of games on the Nintendo Entertainment System.
Free audio post production by alphonic.com. Good evening and welcome to the ministry. I am Archbishop Dracool, and alongside me is Father Avram. Our creed is to inspire the What the hell are you doing? Oh, Archbishop. Oh, oh, uh, hello, Archbishop. Um, I was just testing the microphone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you are you were testing my patience, is what you were testing. I I was just move over, asswipe.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, no. Oh, sorry, Archbishop.
SPEAKER_02Let me show you how it's done. Good evening and welcome to the Ministry. I am Archbishop Dracool, and alongside me is. Father Avram. Our treat is to inspire our parishioners with reflections on the Nintendo Entertainment System. Tonight we are reflecting on Wizards and Warriors, a 1987 action platformer developed by Rare and published by Acclaim. Wizards and Warriors was Rare's second NES release after the black box game Slalom. Rare went on to develop more games in the series such as Ironsword and Kuros Visions of Power. Tonight our visiting deacon is Jeff Gabor. Welcome.
SPEAKER_01Hey, hey, hey.
SPEAKER_05Also accredited for Marble Madness in 1989, California Games in 1989, and Pinbot in 1990, all for the NES. Rachel Edwards, Graphics, also accredited for California Games in 1989, Doubledare in 1990, and Ivan Ironman Stewart Super Off-Road in 1990, all for the NES. David Wise composed that I've never heard of him. Also did John Elway's quarterback in nineteen eighty-nine. Again, all for the NES.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that just barely scratches the surface. That guy is prolific. He's all over the place. God, yeah. Very iconic sounding. He's done a lot.
SPEAKER_02So we found a magazine insert, which looks pretty cool. It's basically the cover art with some screenshots and a little uh synopsis of the story. Um and then we found a poster which showcased Wizards and Warriors with other acclaimed titles, such as 3D World Runner, Star Voyager, Winter Games, and Tiger Heli. A reading from the ad. You're Arkuros, the Night Warrior, hero of the books of Excalibur. Your journey begins deep within the woods of Elrond, where even the wind obeys the supreme wizard, Malkil. A wizard so great, Merlin calls him teacher. But Malkill has strayed from the path and is now part of the dark side. Buried within the catacombs and dungeons of Elrond lies the key to your quest, the powers of levitation, the cloak of darkness, and the mysterious potions only Kuros can drink will be revealed to you. In caverns of fire, through demons that fly and crawl against the soldiers of the undead, you must continue. No sorcery can prevail. For you are the only knight with the strength to wield the bright sword. The prisoner of the wizard awaits, she calls to you from Castle Iron Spire. But the wizard is watching you, warrior. And this tale has just begun. The reading from the ad. Praise.
SPEAKER_01Well, from that sounds pretty good.
SPEAKER_05Yeah I I mean, you know. I I I oh there's so many names in this in this uh in this game that I'm like wait, we're mixing like Lord of the Rings with with the King Arthur and you know, and it's like it's just it's very interesting. Yeah, and then you have all the. Yeah, like then you have all the princess names like Penelope. Um and uh which isn't mentioned in the ad, but yeah, we'll get to that with narrative.
SPEAKER_02But we'll be getting to narrative right now. Let us discuss the seven categories for which we execute judgment on wizards and warriors. Category one is the narrative.
SPEAKER_05A reading from the manual. She's sleeping now, the princess. But who knows what he has planned for her once she awakens? He is Wizard Mao Kil. Legend has it that Maokil was once one of the greatest. So great, in fact, that even the renowned Merlin was his pupil. But alas, Maokill has gone mad with age and turned his powerful magic to the dark side. You are Kuros, the only night warrior brave enough to enter the woods of Elrond, strong enough to wield the bright sword, powerful enough to ward off the demons, the undead and the caverns of fire, and clever enough to discover where Mao Kil has hidden his prisoner. This is a reading from the manual.
SPEAKER_02So this is standard fair rescue the d rescue the damsel in distress, sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yes, very standard.
SPEAKER_05I mean, it doesn't get any more cliche than than this game as far as as far as narratives go.
SPEAKER_01No, and I know it is like a hodgepodge of a whole bunch of different stories, but I would say if I went on just this, I'd I would think we're in for a treat.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah. I mean it's I mean, especially given the times, I mean, you know, these are the types of stories that back in these days you only you only got to you know experience these types of stories either in a novel or in a tabletop game. You know, so you know, seeing something like this in a video game is like, oh hell yeah. And then you turn it on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's so interesting that putting such an emphasis on this bright sword. It's like, oh, okay, you must have a really great sword in this game, something that's really important.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it would seem it would seem that way.
SPEAKER_02That's false advertising, right? You just just to put it out there, you you you you can't you can't fight with your sword.
SPEAKER_05It's just well, I mean we'll we'll get there with gameplay, but I I I just want to say the narrative, like if you haven't read the manual, you need to. It's like it's like the whole the whole thing is like a freaking novel. It is there's so much text in this novel. I I went through and read it all um because I I I I played this game on stream, and I went through and read it all before I played it, and I was like, holy crap, I'm gonna be here all night reading this thing. Like, that's the way it felt. Um and you know, but there's just so much like really lore. Like this this reading from the manual doesn't do it justice. There's like tons of information in this manual, it's pretty crazy.
SPEAKER_01No, I dare say it feels like they put more time and energy into the manual than they did the game.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I agree. Uh, I'd like to add just an ad uh an addendum, if you would, to the reading to the manual, just one paragraph. Um it's from the excerpt uh on page five in the manual called The Journey of Kuros, just to shed a little bit of light on the bright sword. It says, But Kuros is famous for fighting evil. His thrice blessed weapon, bright sword, is a legend of its own. So fighting irksome insects, menacing monsters, or even ghoulish otherworld characters should prove to be second nature. So that's that's all there are. I just wanted to add that in. As as uh a little s some some textual flavoring, if you would, to our conversation that will surely happen in a few minutes. Right.
SPEAKER_02I actually thought the sound effects were pretty cool. There are some decent tracks in the game, but there's also a lot that missed the mark.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I recognize a lot of the the sounds from actually this podcast. That's what I recognize and all that stuff feels very charming and uh you know nostalgic and feels great. I have to go straight to the warning music for when you're about to die. Could there be anything more annoying and off in terms of the tone?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01God, I hate it.
SPEAKER_02I it it gets it felt like it felt like marble madness all of a sudden starts you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it it doesn't sound like a warning that you're running out of health. It's like, oh, did I get a power-up? Is there something happening? Like, I I think something good is happening.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then you die. And next thing you know, your your leg is hanging off the side.
SPEAKER_01Yep, you're just flailing.
SPEAKER_05I actually do like the uh the death animation in this.
SPEAKER_01It's very cute.
SPEAKER_02I I agree. The death animation is one of the best on the system, I gotta say.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know. Uh but but that's graphics, god damn it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I know. We we there's so many overlapping things to talk about with this game, though.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, it is it is pretty much uh a very very mishmashy sort of game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I like all the small sound effects, the opening of the chess and the getting of items and all that. Like I I I just feel like it feels early Nintendo and it feels so cool. I really actually like that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think they did really well with the with the sound effects. Um and and I do I do like, you know, a few of the tracks. I just feel like they get tiring very quickly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like that one that's like I I think it's when you're in the tree in the very beginning, it's like and then it starts over.
SPEAKER_05It's just on the There's a lot of that in this game. You kind of expect it to play something else and then it doesn't.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Yeah, it it the music is not I mean, especially for it being David Wise, like it's just not great, but I I do think it just makes up for it in the sound effects, so it's like I don't know which to choose or which which way to fall on the judgment of this, but certainly uh it's a tale of two two sides with that. It's like the music just sucks at times, just so bad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean I I oh man, I I feel this so much the same way, but you know, if the music wasn't so short and so repetitive, I feel like it would be great. Because I I think like even when you just mentioned like the first level, that that forest track, um, probably the most memorable track in the game, actually, it's it's like a good it's that that you know, whatever it is, four measures, is like a good composition. Like you don't hear that style of music on the NES. You usually hear like action stuff, fast-paced stuff, maybe some mysterious little thing that's uh has a has a cascading memory, uh melody over the entire thing that doesn't you don't really get a break from, but you don't really hear like compositions with musical breathing, and it's in there.
SPEAKER_01So I feel like if it was just longer, like if there was more if there were more stanzas to the music, so to speak, you know, that that there would be it it could potentially be a great track, but it's just uh you're definitely being very generous with it, I will say, but like because I'm going back to like the narrative, and they're setting up this like Lord of the Rings type of story, and so I'm expecting like an overture. I'm expecting Zelda type of music, and yeah that it is not there.
SPEAKER_05Yep. No, you're right. Definitely not, yeah. I wonder how long it took to make this game. Because they they came out what what what what year was this game? 1989?
SPEAKER_0287. Oh, okay. Alright. So it was it was early. It was pretty early. And I remember this game being like um being in the stores for you know, most games were fifty dollars. Yeah uh this game was thirty-five. I remember I remember that distinctly that it was sort of like a budget title. So maybe they went into it knowing that.
SPEAKER_05Well, was this was this a claims first NES game?
SPEAKER_01No, Marble Madness had to have come out first, right?
SPEAKER_02Well, that was Milton Bradley. Marble Madness was 1989.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02The the uh acclaim would have been like 3D World Runner would probably have been its earliest, I would I would guess.
SPEAKER_05Alright, so then this shouldn't have been very hard for them to do. I was thinking maybe a lot of time was spent in like R D, you know. But yeah, no, I I mean music is what it is. It's it's it's you know, I feel like it has its own charm, but God is it repetitive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. That's a that's a perfect way of summing it up. Let us move to category three, which is game design. Here we go. Mr. Gabor, would you mind doing the reading? It would be my pleasure.
SPEAKER_01A reading from the manual. The powers of goodness and truth are on your side, for the woods and even the caverns are filled with magic chests, magic potions, and special objects to help you along the way. There are also gems, coins, and other valuables you will collect, and acorns and torches that conceal bonus objects. There's even food, hunks of meat, to add to your always depleting life force. Try to pick up everything you can and most of all try to use everything you pick up, because on this magical quest, you're going to need all the help you can get. Most weaponry and magical items will be replaced when you pick up a new item. However, some items once found can be carried constantly. They are the dagger of throwing, axe, shield of protection, feather of feather fall, potion of levitation. Chess. You'll notice chests of three different colours, red, blue, and purple. Each chest contains weapons, wealth, or magical items. But to get inside each chest, you need the key whose color matches that of the chest. Or we also need the boots of force. Since many items replace items that you are carrying, there are times where you'll want to leave certain chests unopened, so that you can hang on to the certain items of value. Doors. Like chests, they are either red, blue, or purple. And like chess, they need the right color key to open them. Keys. You'll find them in three different colors. This is a reading from the manual.
SPEAKER_02So can I just point out something that really pisses me off about this?
SPEAKER_01Yes, please.
SPEAKER_02So s I'm gonna I'm gonna read, I'm gonna quote this exactly. Since many items replace items that you are carrying, there are times where you'll want to leave certain chests unopened. How the fuck are you supposed to know what's in a chest?
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Remember, you have to replay it.
SPEAKER_03God, God, God. Give me a break.
SPEAKER_05Yep. Yep. Well, I mean, I I what really gets me is like some of these things, like if you don't get them, right? Like I uh uh quoting this like you did, you know, for the woods and even the caverns are filled with magic chests, magic potions, and special objects to help you along the way. And if it it should actually follow to say, and if you don't pick them up, you are surely fucked.
SPEAKER_02Like you know You know how many times I had to restart this game?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the dagger of throwing, the shield of protection, the potion of legit levitation, and the feather of featherfall are critical to completing this game. All of them. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01I swear to god, like I'm not a hundred percent sure sure, but I was just playing the game casually and got to the third level, and I got I feel I didn't pick up the featherfall and the um the magic jump thing. And I feel like I was soflocked. I could not get the key. I got there's just like this slope, and you can you your character, if the slope is too great, you slide down. And you cannot get over this one particular area unless you have those items, and they're not on that level anymore, unless I just missed it. So I was just like, I guess I'm soft locked. I I I I guess I'll reset.
SPEAKER_02That ha that happened to me too. If you don't take the time.
SPEAKER_05If you don't take the time to master the jump to get the feather of featherfall, because that jump is stupid. Yeah. Um if you don't take the time to describe it a little bit, you are completely soft locked. So you're in the cave, it's the uh is it the third level? I think it's the third level.
SPEAKER_01I to get the featherfall, I think it's the second level. I'm almost positive it's yeah, it's the ice cavern.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so you're in the cavern, you're on you're on the you're on a platform, and you have to jump uh how do I describe this? You have to jump into a cave opening that has one of these slopes that Deacon Gabor mentioned where you if you land on the slope you you slide down. You have to get over the slope in order to um in order to actually land and enter this cavern that has the chest with the feather of featherfall. But if you don't land the jump, or if you don't make the jump, because I think that's actually the key, if you don't make the jump uh perfectly, then you will either hit the ceiling and fall short, or or try if you or if you undershoot it, then you just don't hit the ceiling, but you just land on the slope and slide down.
SPEAKER_02Over and over again.
SPEAKER_05It's like the closest thing to a pixel perfect operation that I have ever seen in a critical path for completing a game.
SPEAKER_01And and the the the easier route to do it, and this still is by no means easier, is you go down one level, and there's a potion that kind of speeds you up, which kind of gives you an a little farther of a jump, you know, horizontally speaking. And so, but to get that potion and to get back to where you need to jump, you basically have to have a perfect speed run to that moment. Like you cannot miss one jump. So it out it up it actually feels like, oh, I'm not supposed to use this here because it feels too tight. God, it's horrible design, horrible.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that is that is the worst. I think that's the worst part of the game.
SPEAKER_01Are any of these items like can you get them later in the game? No, like I know the boots show up, I think, multiple times, but this like feather falling in the in the potion of jump, I'm not sure they ever they man.
SPEAKER_05I don't I don't think the feather of feather fall show up again.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_05I think it's one location.
SPEAKER_02That's the thing, you you can get soft locked. It's it's it's it's almost a guarantee. If you're if you're not like if you don't look at like a map or something beforehand from online, which is which kind of is shitty, but yeah. Um I feel like it's almost necessary.
SPEAKER_05If you don't get that feather of featherfall and you somehow make it to the last level, good luck trying to climb up that castle face without featherfall. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You haven't explained what it is.
SPEAKER_05Like oh, I that's true. Go ahead, Deacon.
SPEAKER_01So basically, like your falling half of the game is just jumping on teeny pixel perfect jumps over and over again, and your fall is pretty fast, so you can't really like maneuver quick enough um to recover. So they got this one feather fall thing, and you basically hold up on the D-pad, and it slows your descent down drastically, so you can actually maneuver properly and get to these. You can basically platform.
SPEAKER_05And once you get it, you just basically hold up on the D-pad for the rest of the game. Yeah, and break your thumb. That was another thing.
SPEAKER_01My thumb was so sore.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Uh those those permanent items that affect gameplay are cool, though. I will I will say that. Oh, it's great. It's great.
SPEAKER_05I wish they had I wish that they had designed the levels better around it.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It just makes you appreciate the ingenuity, again, of like a Zelda type game, where there's these special items to use and they get you in the further and further in the game, and they make sure you can't proceed until you have those games. You never get into a position where you're soft locked, or you get into a position where you don't know what to do without the item, or did I miss an item? It's just God, uh, they just screw you in this game.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That plus the poor melee combat.
SPEAKER_05Oh, here we go. Oh god. We haven't we've we didn't even touch that yet. That's crazy. No.
SPEAKER_02The that so you have you do have the ability to wield your sword, like it says in the manual, like he would. But it is the most pathetic like attack animation I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_05Well, it's not even really an attack, he just like goggles the sword.
SPEAKER_01I think it's just for show because in the end, you just sort of jump into characters and you make sure they hit you in a particular area of your sprite, and that's it. And then you're like, I guess I'm doing melee damage because it hit me on the front side of my character without going too far into my hitbox. That's it. It's so it's the worst melee combat I've seen in a game.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's awful. And you mentioned this briefly, um, but I'm gonna say it again. I hate games that are designed in such a way where the player learns by dying. This game you learn by falling. With the pachinko levels being the most egregious thing ever. I can't believe it. I can't believe someone someone designed pachinko roots in a tree. It's like oh god.
SPEAKER_01You literally became become your own little disc of Plinko on Price is Right. Yeah, you're just falling down. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_02Did I say that wrong? Did I say pachinko?
SPEAKER_01You said pachinko. I think the game on Price is right is called Plinko, right? Yeah, I think if I'm right, I think it's Plinko. Yeah, but that's neither here nor there. That the point is, like, it is dead on that's the feeling. Oh, and and you're I know that's the first the end of the first level, and you have to collect a certain amount of gems to get through this door to be able to go down this Plinko course, and the whole time you're sort of collecting gems on the way. To what end? I don't even understand. It's like I already got my gems, and you're just taking damage the whole way down. Enemies are flying and swarming, and there is nothing you can do. You don't have the feather fall yet to be able to control your descent. You're just taking it. It's awful. It's so awful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then and then like all of a sudden you'll get you'll fall into a chest, and you there's nothing you can do. You are getting that item that's that's that you land on, and it'll like replace one of your other items and it'll piss you off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Oh, so just to clear the air, pachinko and Plinko is actually the same thing. Great. Save we're both right.
SPEAKER_01Great, perfect. And then these special items, and I should have paid better attention to the manual, I guess. But these special items are to use them and to activate them, you have to use the select button. It's like, what the kind of choice is that?
SPEAKER_02That's a controls issue, Jeff Kabor. Okay, fine.
SPEAKER_01It's a controls issue. I'm sorry. Let's talk about controls later. Let's not talk about the Alright, fine, fine, fine, it's fine, it's fine. I don't like the gameplay of hitting select. How about you I say it like that?
SPEAKER_05Well, so I mean You brought up a good point about the gems though. Like the the to what end is pretty much the the the name of this game. Like, because yeah, you have unlimited lives, right? You you die and you lose all your points. The only thing that gems actually get you is unlocking the final door, right? So the only reason really why you're collecting gems is for points and to progress in the game. But once you realize that you have unlimited lives, you just totally don't care about the points anymore. Yep. And you just want to finish the game. And so I feel like in this case, in 1987, again, we have the arcade syndrome still hanging on um, you know, pretty hard in in this game where they're trying to, you know, they're developing a narrative adventure, but rather than stepping full into it, they're like, oh, but then we're gonna have a point system. And, you know, and I think that it suffers from that.
SPEAKER_01There's also some hidden design choices that are odd around the gems. Like I don't know if you guys caught on to it, but there's there's like these pink gems and red gems that kind of sparkle and stuff. But the red gems, if you throw your dagger at it, it's worth twice as much.
SPEAKER_05I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. It's not it, no, I swear it doesn't mention it in the manual. It's just something you pick up on by accident. So now you can collect twice as many gems, and you you it takes half as long, you know, to get to that door because you spend all your time now throwing your dagger at the gems instead of walking into them.
SPEAKER_02That would have been nice to know.
SPEAKER_01Right? Uh, but it only doesn't work unless it's the red gems that are on the level, not that are spawned out of defeating an enemy. So there's uh there's a separation between the two, so the rules don't stay consistent. It is wack-adoo. And then the doors, I gotta talk about the doors. One, there's these hidden hidden areas, right? And it's like you could just jump around the level and eventually hope you find a hidden room. But going in and out of doors is instantaneous. You touch that collision box, you're going into the door. You have no choice. Now, this often happened to me is I would find it a secret room by accident, but I'm in the middle of still tapping jump because you're constantly jumping this game, and I will go into a secret room that has all these gems that I need to get, but because I'm tapping jump, I immediately jump right out of the room, and you do not get to go back into a secret room. So it's like, well, there goes 20 dang gems I'm never gonna get because I accidentally hit jump and was forced out of the room. That happened to me so many times. God, it pissed me off.
SPEAKER_02Do you guys know who David Perry is?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Have you ever heard that name before?
SPEAKER_05I think so. Sounds familiar, I can't play you.
SPEAKER_02He was a game designer well known for his Genesis game. Uh he worked on the Genesis games and uh Earthworm Jim and Aladdin.
SPEAKER_04Oh, that's why I'm okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He he was sort of made famous by these designs that he developed. And I can't help but think that he got all his inspiration from this game. Collecting items to advance, collecting certain items to advance, jumping all over the fucking place on one screen per level.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like he must have gotten his inspiration from this game.
SPEAKER_05So I I just I I want to add a little bit of of um a pushback to everything we've been saying.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_05That is this game is a huge missed opportunity. And and I think here's why. They could have leaned hard into the arcade portion of this and made a really cool grindy game. But because if you like look at the points system or the points, they have in the manual, they have a compendium. That you know, in comparison to other games, they have a compendium of these are all the things, all the enemies, all the different values of points that each thing is worth. And it's like, I first of all, when I see something like that, like I I like it. I don't know why I like it, guys, but I do. And so I'm like, I'm like, man, this is cool. Like, yeah, I just need to find like I just need to find like you know, five uh, you know, vampire bats and get a hundred thousand points off that, right? Like, uh, you know, and so they could have leaned into that, but no, instead, they're like, oh no, you know, when you when you die, like you're gonna lose everything. It's just zero.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And it's like it makes the point system worthless when really it should just be, hey, I got this far, and in this amount of time, this is how many points I agree. Like, they shouldn't wipe it out, but they do. And I feel like that's a missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I feel like it it's it feels like the game was half living in between two worlds, I guess is what I'm trying to say. It didn't know whether to be one game or another, and it it ended up being neither. It's not an arcade game where you're point pushing and it's not a great adventure game either. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's it's a tragedy, really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Did you guys notice they they actually put a like a jump mechanic, like a rhygar-esque bounce on the enemies?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but that never fucking works.
SPEAKER_01It's broken!
SPEAKER_04It never works.
SPEAKER_01One of the items, like the the shield, the shield at it or the shield of protection on the very first level at the very top of the trees. You basically have to wait for a spawn of like a potion that makes you jump high, or you have to somehow double jump off these enemies. And the only way to jump on the enemies is you first have to take damage to put yourself into eye frames, and then just happen to land perfectly on an enemy, but don't face the right way because your sword will kill them, and then land on them and then somehow you know boost you up. I cannot consistently do it. Could not do it. It is the most broken mechanic, and they even mention it in the manual, I think. And it's just like nothing you can pull off, you cannot pull it off.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's definitely yeah, actually, it's in special tips. When jumping, remember you can bounce off stationary as well as moving objects, but when jumping off an enemy, use him strictly as a springboard because if you linger too long, you'll use up valuable life force energy.
SPEAKER_01What a fucking I I don't I I couldn't get it. I couldn't maybe maybe it maybe you're supposed to as soon as you land on its head, trust jump again perfectly or something. I I don't I could not get it.
SPEAKER_05I I I'm not sure either. Yeah. I'm really not sure. I I was able to land that, but I have no idea how I did it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it certainly didn't feel like Rhaegar, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_05I I know any time that I bounced off an enemy was like a total accident. Yeah. Yeah. It was never on purpose. Never.
SPEAKER_01There's also serious issues with the camera, too, because you were talking about so much of the game is vertically scrolling, and one of the first whatever areas that you're trying to get up in the tree, these spiders are like descending on your head. But as you're trying to jump up, your character quickly gets within the top like 10% of the screen space, and you have no ability to see that these spiders are going to spawn right on your skull. And so you you're playing this weird game where you jump up high enough and then you drop back down, just so you can kind of scroll the screen a little bit and see what's coming, and then you jump back up, scroll the screen, then jump back down to see what's coming. It is it it's just bad.
SPEAKER_03It's just bad. Alright.
SPEAKER_02I think we've made our point. Is there anything uh is there anything left to say about game design?
SPEAKER_05Hmm, I mean, I think yeah, there probably is, but I mean I think we hit all of the really hard pain points. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, I feel well, you know, I will I'll mention one other thing is that the um for as many times as you die in this game, uh they did not need to add retracting platforms in the side of the castle. Like I could have done without that garbage.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Uh I don't know how many people ever got there. I I mean I beat this game in one sitting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe I was gonna say, maybe because of the unlimited lives type of thing. Maybe it's actually more people got there than I think.
SPEAKER_05But I mean, the first time I played it, I got uh uh well first time I played it a while ago, uh, like I think I I played it. The last time I played it before this podcast was about, I don't know, it was like a year or two ago, last time I played it, and I got softlocked just like you mentioned, and I was like, Yep, I'm done with this shit. But you know, um but yeah. Uh but yeah, this time around, I I've I've somehow just grinded my way through it in one sitting. I think it took me three hours to do just to get through the whole thing. And um I just got lucky, I guess.
SPEAKER_02I distinctly remember beating this as a kid. Oh wow. Look at you go. Like in uh and and I did it like it was one of the first games I it was one of the first times I actually played it, I beat it. And I never I I back then it was a rental, or no, actually I borrowed it from my friend Ben and because he owned it, and I borrowed it from him, and I so I didn't have the manual, so I just played it, and I must have got lucky or something, or I don't know how I got past some of these things that would soft walk you. Like I have no recollection of it, maybe it was too painful to remember.
SPEAKER_05I don't know suppressed memory, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I do remember beating it. Um I didn't beat it this time around.
SPEAKER_01What? That's so sad. It's like that the nine year old gamer in you is better than the gamer that's in you now.
SPEAKER_04That's uh that's true.
SPEAKER_02Let us proceed to category four, which is graphics. I think the graphics are great in this game.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like I don't have any problem with the graphics.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02It is interesting, however, on the bosses, you can really see the the how the color black is actually transparency.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02Like specifically with that first boss where he's he's got the big eyes that are just black, and then when he bounces around, like you you could see like the cliff wall and everything behind it coming through the eyes and everything. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_05So I I find I th it's really funny that you mentioned the uh the the black background because I have a love for games that use black backgrounds. Um, it makes everything pop, it makes everything really obvious, and it's just for me personally, as a gamer, it makes it a much more enjoyable experience. Um, and this game does that really well. Where I don't like it is in like the places where like you know, they they decided to suddenly and abruptly you're inside of a tree and the entire screen is filled with color, and that and that change to me is too abrupt. Um but I understand why they decided to go to do that. Um I just I really like the the use of the color black in uh in this game. I think they do it really well. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the animations are cute. I feel like the main character, uh despite his you know, weak sword fighting skills animation, it's still a very cute looking sprite. Like I actually find it very charming. Um it's I actually don't know how I I would like to actually break it down a little bit because that swinging leg, you know, you don't got much to work with. You know, I don't know, what do they got? Like four by four pixels or something. I don't know, it's not much. And you get the whole like it you die, you lay on your back, and your legs continues to swing with some extra motion, it's really well done. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Rachel, if you're listening, good job, and you're the only one out of your team that received any praise this evening.
SPEAKER_02Uh let us proceed to category five, which is box art and presentation. I think the the box art, the cover art is fantastic. Oh, I agree. Like it it's really awesome. It it like they they did they put they put like their entire budget into this cover art.
SPEAKER_05Wholeheartedly agree, and I think the back of the box is charming too. It's it's not it's it's unassuming.
SPEAKER_01The yeah, my only issue is would you guys mind zooming into the crotch of Kiros? Like what is going on? He is hanging some serious brain.
SPEAKER_00What is going on? What is going on there? I don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_02He's a warrior, you know? Yeah. It's hard to explain. I don't know how he jumps with all that going on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean that is an elephant-sized testicle there. Good on you, Kiros. I have no words.
SPEAKER_05I know what's happening in this picture. Look, you see you see the wizard Mao Kill in the background, and he's obviously jealous of Koros' big balls.
SPEAKER_03That's what it's about.
SPEAKER_02I like how you said that. I like how you delivered it. It was like you're like Koros' big balls.
SPEAKER_05God.
SPEAKER_02Uh exploring and finding weapons and items is fun. Tiny platforming and falling all the time is not fun. Pachinko areas are extremely frustrating.
SPEAKER_03That's what I have written down. I mean, seconded. I I feel all of that.
SPEAKER_05Um however I gotta say it, guys, I had fun playing this game. For all of its quirks, for all of its for all of its flaws and and whatever, like, yeah, it left so much to be desired as a game, but at the same time, like there's there is there was an element of um there's an element of atmosphere that I think the graphics makes a lot of room for in this game that that isn't found in a lot of NES games.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, honestly, I can't completely disagree. I w I did not enjoy the game playing it casually, but once I like committed to having a a bit of a guide, I I actually found it quite enjoyable. It's like you get those couple items that are crucial, and the game opens up for you, and it's actually not a bad game. The the fact that you don't start the game over each time you have to use a continue made it actually quite fun. I I don't think I would say it holds up to the test of time, and I would never make my kids play it, but it is for my sake, it was enjoyable.
SPEAKER_05I thought you were gonna say the testicles of time.
SPEAKER_00Oh, what a missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna mention that um that we haven't mentioned is that you have unlimited continues. And that that makes at least makes the game accessible. And I swear if they didn't have that, this game you you wouldn't play it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you'd you'd you would you you would burn through your continues if you didn't have that. Like they probably started this game with like, oh yeah, I have three continues just like all the other games out there or whatever. And they probably did that, and they're like, hey, yeah, we can't get past level one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I know I I don't think you guys are too much into retro achievements, but one of the achievements I think is to get through the game without using a continue. And I was like, that uh I will not be mastering this game, I will not badge this game. There's no way I'm ever gonna do that. Who the hell does that? I don't know. I don't think uh to me, it feels impossible because the RNG of these enemies flying all over the screen just is like it's not your fault. It just you just get whacked constantly.
SPEAKER_05I can't imagine the amount of hours you would have to sink into playing this game in order to get that badge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it just feels like you you have to just spin a wheel of luck and just things didn't fly into your face constantly.
SPEAKER_05If you are the if you're a retro achievements dev and you put together these badges, shame on you. Do something about it.
SPEAKER_01Dude, that is my biggest I know I know this is about Wizards and Warriors, but retro achievements, I will say like I like doing them casually, but to badge games, they make you hate games you love because they put in stuff like that. No, that's true. I've run into that a couple of times myself.
SPEAKER_02Let us proceed to category seven, which is controls and technical. Outside of the you know, the use of the select button, which is already mentioned, we and the bouncing, the the broken bouncing. Um I can't really think of anything else that's noteworthy to mention.
SPEAKER_05Well, I think we mentioned one of them, which is you have to hold down up once you get the feather of featherfall. Um it would have been much better to have that as like a toggle, but you have to actually hold up, and uh that that makes it really painful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you would have been able to just continue to hold the jump button down to slow yourself down, that would have more natural.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yep. Um, other than that, the uh we already mentioned uh the jump mechanic being broken, that's definitely a flaw, a technical flaw. Um the camera was mentioned earlier, that's definitely a technical flaw. You could say that the physics, you fall too fast. Like that's that's a problem. That's a technical problem.
SPEAKER_01I kept falling through the bubbles a lot. I don't know if you guys had that. It's like if you tried to use your extra high jump while you were on a bubble, you'd actually fall through the bubble. It's so I know it's a minor remark, but it did frustrate me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I don't know if I noticed that. That's uh that's interesting, huh? Yeah, so that's definitely a problem. If any of this stuff was by design, it it wasn't obvious. It was it it seems like a technical issue, not not like a design issue. True.
SPEAKER_02Let us proclaim the hints and cheats of our game. A reading from the manual. Special tips. Remember to leave no corner unexplored, no stone unturned, and nothing left behind. Because you are going to need all the weapons, magic, and special items you can get your hands on. When jumping, remember you can bounce off of stationary as well as moving objects. But when jumping off of an enemy, use him strictly as a springboard. Because if you linger for too long, you'll use up valuable life force energy. To progress to each new level, you need to have collected a certain number of gems. If you find it repeatedly impossible to get through a new level, it may be that you haven't ever collected enough gems. Who wrote this?
SPEAKER_05Never in the hist in your history have you ever collected enough gems.
SPEAKER_02When exploring the castle, don't be surprised if you find that the princess is not the only beautiful young maiden that evil mouthkill has kidnapped. You'll find he had several other damsels locked away as well. There, wow, what a perv.
SPEAKER_01He might just be protecting him from Kiros' large balls.
SPEAKER_02I was thinking the same thing. Yeah. Hey, he's got a lot of seed to spread. Um when you lose a game, you want to start over from the beginning of the last level where you were in. Press it. This makes no sense. When you lose a game and you want to start over from the beginning of the last level you were in, press any button within five seconds of losing all your life force energy. Do you guys understand that?
SPEAKER_05I think they're talking about I think they're talking about the continue timer, but it's not five seconds, it's ten seconds, right?
SPEAKER_01And you don't start from the beginning of the level, you start exactly where you died. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Some caverns and castle rooms are dead ends. So make sure you want to go in before you discover there's no way out. I never ran into that.
SPEAKER_05How does that ever how does it even make sense though? Like, hey, behind this door might be a dead end. So make sure you want to go in here before you go in here because you might not be able to get out.
SPEAKER_02It's the same thing as what's in the chest.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's like make sure you want to pick up the item in this chest uh before you open it. Because once you open it and pick it up, you know, you're gonna be stuck with it. So make sure that you want the item in the chest. Well, how am I supposed to know? Just open the chest.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_05You're stuck with it. Oh my god. It's it's it's a it's a horrible conundrum. And now, brethren, let us offer each other the body of price. This is the section of the show where we go over the game price then and now. Uh Wizards and Warriors was $34.99 when it was on the market in 1987. Um, if this game was on sale today, uh according to the CPI inflation calculator, adjusting for inflation, this would be on sale for $101.98. Yeah. Uh so uh just goes to show you how much your parents loved you when they allowed you to get this this piece of shit game. According to pricecharting.com, today a loose copy, so just the cart goes for $14.31. It's a pretty average you know loose cart price. Just the box is $20. This is asinine to me. I feel like this box is should be should be worth more. But you know, it is what it is. Uh the manual only, $9.54. Is is this just me or is this is that pricey?
SPEAKER_02Uh manuals are are actually pretty expensive.
SPEAKER_05Okay, cuz I don't really ever look at the manual market, so I wasn't sure, but I I it feels like I wouldn't want to pay $10 for this manual. Um although I would say the manual is charming and there's a lot of text and whatever, like I mentioned earlier, but still ten dollars. Whew. Um but this is actually on the cheap side, I guess. Uh complete inbox. This is probably the best price I've seen so far. $50.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a good deal.
SPEAKER_05Yep. Brand new, un unopened, sealed. $240.75. So it is literally this a sealed copy has increased more than a hundred percent in dollar for dollar value, including inf inflation.
SPEAKER_03I didn't look at that. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Because it would have been sold if there was no inflation, it would have been sold for 10198 unsealed, or I'm sorry, unopened, sealed in box. But today it goes for two two hundred and forty dollars and seventy-five cents. So that's that's uh that's actually that's a pretty cool investment, you know.
SPEAKER_03So get your hand and hands on those sealed games.
SPEAKER_05Imagine, imagine if if if we could somehow go back in time and be like, Mom, Dad, you don't understand. If you buy this game today for $34.99, I could sell it in 35 years for $50. Like, oh really? Well, how much how much would it be worth if we didn't open it? $240.75. Okay, great, we'll buy it. Great, can't wait to play it when you go, oh yeah, you're not fucking playing this thing. This is going in the wrong.
SPEAKER_02Father Aver, in regards to narrative, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_05In regards to narrative, Wizards and Warriors has committed a most heinous cardinal sin.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Kabor, in regards to narrative, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_01In regards to narrative, Wizards and Warriors has committed no fault.
SPEAKER_02In regards to narrative and in the presence of this assembly, Wizards and Warriors has committed a loathsome cardinal sin deserving of hellfire and damnation. One Father Aver, in regards to audio, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_05In regards to audio, Wizards and Warriors has committed no fault.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Gabor, in regards to audio, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_01In regards to audio, Wizards and Warriors has committed a most heinous cardinal sin.
SPEAKER_02In regards to audio and in the presence of this assembly, Wizards and Warriors has committed a loathsome cardinal sin deserving of hell, fire, and damnation.
SPEAKER_032.
SPEAKER_02Father Aver.
SPEAKER_05In regards to game design, Wizards and Warriors has committed a most heinous cardinal sin.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Gabor.
SPEAKER_01In regards to game design, what is your final judgment? In regards to game design, Wizards and Warriors has committed a most heinous cardinal sin.
SPEAKER_02In regards to game design and in the presence of this assembly, Wizards and Warriors has committed a loathsome cardinal sin deserving of hell, fire, and damnation. Father Raver, in regards to graphics, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_05In regards to graphics, Wizards and Warriors has committed no fault.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Gabor, in regards to graphics, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_01In regards to graphics, Wizards and Warriors has committed no fault.
SPEAKER_02In regards to graphics and in the presence of this assembly, Wizards and Warriors has been spared. Father Avram, in regards to box art and presentation, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_05In regards to box art and presentation, Wizards and Warriors has committed no fault.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Gabor, in regards to box art and presentation, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_01In regards to box art and presentation, Wizards and Warriors has committed no fault.
SPEAKER_02In regards to box art and presentation, in the presence of this assembly, Wizards and Warriors has been spared. Father Abram, in regards to Fun Factor, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_05In regards to Fun Factor, Wizards and Warriors has committed no fault.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Gabor. In regards to Fun Factor, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_01In regards to Fun Factor, Wizards and Warriors has committed a most heinous cardinal sin.
SPEAKER_02In regards to Fun Factor, and in the presence of this assembly, Wizards and Warriors has committed a loathsome cardinal sin deserving of hell, fire, and damnation. Father Abram, in regards to technical and controls, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_05In regards to technical and controls, Wizards and Warriors has committed a most heinous cardinal sin because I'm still wearing the bandage on my thumb.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Gabor, in regards to technical and controls, what is your final judgment?
SPEAKER_01In regards to technical and controls, Wizards and Warriors has committed a most heinous cardinal sin.
SPEAKER_02In regards to technical and controls, and in the presence of this assembly, Wizards and Warriors has committed a lothesome cardinal sin deserving of hellfire and damnation. For what category? Graphics.
SPEAKER_01I second it.
SPEAKER_02And let it be. Having committed five cardinal sins in the categories of narrative, audio, game design, fun factor, and technical and controls, for which there can be no forgiveness, no mercy, no redemption, we exile you to the bowels of hell. This concludes tonight's service. Remember, our liturgy does not simply come to an end. Those who assemble are sent forth to bring the fruits of the ministry to the world.
SPEAKER_03Free audio post production by Alphonic.com.
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